Israel war

the world is different now. “Their town” is bigger than it was in the 60s. It’s another one of those please dont underestimate the radically transformative nature of the internet moments. The specific location of the body bags is not as important when you can talk to people from any part of the world at a moments notice if you want. You might not understand it, and that’s okay you’re in a different generation and view the world differently than they do, but that doesn’t mean it’s right to decry it as inauthentic or forced.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

DWags wrote:


I remember the Vietnam protests.  I was 11 years old 12 years old and I knew people from my hometown who came back in body bags and t
wheelchairs.   I was pissed off   Maybe it’s not fair of me to say that these protests arent as organic, Because there aren’t very many students on campuses that have a real personal connection towhat’s going on in the Middle East.    Back then, everybody knew somebody that was harmed by Vietnam and someway. And I have to believe it was in every town in America.   It’s pretty easy to get a grass root Movement When you have that kind of connection.  There were a lot of pissed off people

Do you think that 60+ year old people were more likely in the Vietnam era to decry something they only saw on tv (and one interview at that) as inorganic and lacking real connections?

I’m not comparing the two.   I do believe there is some organic nature to these protests, Because kids seem to be way more conscious what’s going on in the world.   The two young ladies seem to understand Or at least believe in their fellow students who knew what the protest were about.  

By the time I was conscientious of the protest and the hate for Vietnam, It was well past 1968 and the Democratic convention.  It was past the month in 1968 that Walter Cronkite declared that Vietnam was not a winnable war.   I don’t have any facts of this, But I believe once he said that on the news that the majority of Americans young and old just said let’s get the fuck out of here.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

DWags wrote:


I remember the Vietnam protests.  I was 11 years old 12 years old and I knew people from my hometown who came back in body bags and t
wheelchairs.   I was pissed off   Maybe it’s not fair of me to say that these protests arent as organic, Because there aren’t very many students on campuses that have a real personal connection towhat’s going on in the Middle East.    Back then, everybody knew somebody that was harmed by Vietnam and someway. And I have to believe it was in every town in America.   It’s pretty easy to get a grass root Movement When you have that kind of connection.  There were a lot of pissed off people

Do you think that 60+ year old people were more likely in the Vietnam era to decry something they only saw on tv (and one interview at that) as inorganic and lacking real connections?

It’s very possible. Depends on their personal connection to previous wars. It’s a good question.

DWags wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Do you think that 60+ year old people were more likely in the Vietnam era to decry something they only saw on tv (and one interview at that) as inorganic and lacking real connections?

I’m not comparing the two.   I do believe there is some organic nature to these protests, Because kids seem to be way more conscious what’s going on in the world.   The two young ladies seem to understand Or at least believe in their fellow students who knew what the protest were about.  

By the time I was conscientious of the protest and the hate for Vietnam, It was well past 1968 and the Democratic convention.  It was past the month in 1968 that Walter Cronkite declared that Vietnam was not a winnable war.   I don’t have any facts of this, But I believe once he said that on the news that the majority of Americans young and old just said let’s get the fuck out of here.

To the point of what did the rest of the country think of the war protests, well there were two extremes and then a continuum across the rest of the spectrum.  As the war went on there was less support for it, though there are still, today, people who blame the students for the US withdrawal from and loss of Vietnam.  The "60-year-olds" in the 1960's were born in 1900 after all and had gone through the history of the first world war, the second world war & Korea, along with having been brought up on the heroic stories of the War of Rebellion and the Spanish-American War.  My grandparents and their brothers & sisters never expressed an opinion on it around me.

Pretty much all the students in the 1960's & 1970's knew what the protests were all about.  It would have been very unlikely for any student to answer the question the way those two students answered the question about today's protests, recently, and all the 60-year-olds knew what the protests were about, regardless of how they felt about them.

I’m a fan of saying “in the 60s and 70s they all knew what it was about” which is picking a vast swath of time, multiple decades in fact, and using it in the context of a protest that has been happening for 7 days. I can personally promise that many older people in the 60s were out of touch with what was happening on college campuses in the first 7 days as well. And I can also promise that the ones that maintain their “the kids should shut up” opinion about it were dead wrong.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I’m a fan of saying “in the 60s and 70s they all knew what it was about” which is picking a vast swath of time, multiple decades in fact, and using it in the context of a protest that has been happening for 7 days. I can personally promise that many older people in the 60s were out of touch with what was happening on college campuses in the first 7 days as well. And I can also promise that the ones that maintain their “the kids should shut up” opinion about it were dead wrong.

Good point.

I was in Jr. High & Highschool from 65 to 72 and the protesting started around the time, 1966, that the Selective Service started doing away with blanket student deferments.

Since a much larger portion of the students were affected, it spread very quickly, but yes, on day 7 of the start of the protesting knowledge would have been limited.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I’m a fan of saying “in the 60s and 70s they all knew what it was about” which is picking a vast swath of time, multiple decades in fact, and using it in the context of a protest that has been happening for 7 days. I can personally promise that many older people in the 60s were out of touch with what was happening on college campuses in the first 7 days as well. And I can also promise that the ones that maintain their “the kids should shut up” opinion about it were dead wrong.

Good point.

I was in Jr. High & Highschool from 65 to 72 and the protesting started around the time, 1966, that the Selective Service started doing away with blanket student deferments.

Since a much larger portion of the students were affected, it spread very quickly, but yes, on day 7 of the start of the protesting knowledge would have been limited.

We also have to factor in the type of communication available back then and now. I’m pretty sure 10% or more of American houses still didn’t even have a TV And yes, I did just pull that 10% out of my ass so it’s just a guess.

I still believe if a cause is really grassroots, and it’s organic in nature, it will spread It’s bad timing right now for this particular cause among college students because a lot of campuses will be empty in the next 2 to 3 weeks Let’s see what happens in our big cities this summer.

DWags wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Good point.

I was in Jr. High & Highschool from 65 to 72 and the protesting started around the time, 1966, that the Selective Service started doing away with blanket student deferments.

Since a much larger portion of the students were affected, it spread very quickly, but yes, on day 7 of the start of the protesting knowledge would have been limited.

We also have to factor in the type of communication available back then and now. I’m pretty sure 10% or more of American houses still didn’t even have a TV And yes, I did just pull that 10% out of my ass so it’s just a guess.

I still believe if a cause is really grassroots, and it’s organic in nature, it will spread It’s bad timing right now for this particular cause among college students because a lot of campuses will be empty in the next 2 to 3 weeks Let’s see what happens in our big cities this summer.

I'm will to wag that 90% of local daily newspapers have gone out of business since 1965, and that is important because that was the news source for a majority of the country. News wasn't the instant access thing it is now. The TeeVee and radio daily news ran from 6PM to 7PM, no updates on the hour.

Trapper Gus wrote:

DWags wrote:


We also have to factor in the type of communication available back then and now. I’m pretty sure 10% or more of American houses still didn’t even have a TV And yes, I did just pull that 10% out of my ass so it’s just a guess.

I still believe if a cause is really grassroots, and it’s organic in nature, it will spread It’s bad timing right now for this particular cause among college students because a lot of campuses will be empty in the next 2 to 3 weeks Let’s see what happens in our big cities this summer.

I'm will to wag that 90% of local daily newspapers have gone out of business since 1965, and that is important because that was the news source for a majority of the country. News wasn't the instant access thing it is now. The TeeVee and radio daily news ran from 6PM to 7PM, no updates on the hour.

Do you remember the death counts on tv at night? North Vietnam and US soldiers? It was a weird thing.

DWags wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I'm will to wag that 90% of local daily newspapers have gone out of business since 1965, and that is important because that was the news source for a majority of the country. News wasn't the instant access thing it is now. The TeeVee and radio daily news ran from 6PM to 7PM, no updates on the hour.

Do you remember the death counts on tv at night? North Vietnam and US soldiers? It was a weird thing.

Yup. That was the metric the Army used to show progress. Gary Trudeau had a send up on that in one of his comic strips.

puses because I really don’t think it’s organic. And I wonder if you could ever have an organic movement like we had in the early 70s.

It isn't organic, it's planned most likely by forces diametrically opposed to the student's normal beliefs.

Splitting the libs like Cameron is easy as pie. Just start blaming someone for killing kids, unless it's abortion, and bingo bango you got yourself a following.

Yeah, can't be organic. No one could possibly have a good faith objection to genocide, they must be foreign agents and outside agitators.

Fucking idiot...

Cameron wrote:Yeah, can't be organic. No one could possibly have a good faith objection to genocide, they must be foreign agents and outside agitators.

Fucking idiot...

You don’t even know what genocide is. Here’s an idea for Hamas if you didn’t like getting your soldiers killed and putting innocent civilians in harms way then don’t start a war! Mic drop.

Cameron wrote:Yeah, can't be organic. No one could possibly have a good faith objection to genocide, they must be foreign agents and outside agitators.

Fucking idiot...

Cam, as I posted in a other thread, there are people spending money to create these protests. I even provided the link to as much as can be known about who they are.

Students are the face of the protests, others are providing the funding.

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:Yeah, can't be organic. No one could possibly have a good faith objection to genocide, they must be foreign agents and outside agitators.

Fucking idiot...

You don’t even know what genocide is. Here’s an idea for Hamas if you didn’t like getting your soldiers killed and putting innocent civilians in harms way then don’t start a war! Mic drop.

Your arguing about semantics. Steve, which is what posters do when they are fighting from a losing position.

Abbas appeals to US to stop Israel's Rafah offensive

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas says the US is the only country that can stop Israel from attacking Rafah, the southern Gaza city where more than a million people are taking refuge.

Well then, Rafah is fucked, because Biden ain't gonna do shit.

[tw]1782737187982721039[/tw]

Israel made it clear from the beginning that their goal is to destroy Hamas in Gaza,

While I disagree with their apparent terms of engagement, as I understand them, which Cam provided, I do not disagree with their goal.

Since one of remaining Hamas leaders, who doesn't live in Gaza, is beginning to float the idea of accepting the two-state solution, maybe Israel's Gaza attacks are doing some real damage to Hamas.

Is Israel proposing a two state solution? I must have missed that.

Cameron wrote:Is Israel proposing a two state solution? I must have missed that.

The two-state solution is the UN & US position.

At various points in time one or the other side, Israel & Palestinians have accepted the principle.

The current government of Israel is anti-two-state and wants what Hamas's charter says Hamas wants, the complete control of Israel/Palestine. It is unclear if the Hamas comments in the last week are a serious position or a play to gain more support. My point is that they are being hurt by Israel's attack and are making plays they wouldn't have made before.

Can Joe get this done?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/28/lindsey-graham-saudi-arabia-israel-biden-00154831

Trapper Gus wrote:

... and the policy of assuming all military aged males are Hamas combatants in no way merits reconsideration.

CNN wrote:“The people we’re seeing in these images are all suspected terrorists,” Israeli government spokesperson Eylon Levy told CNN’s Brianna Keilar. “When we find military-aged men in areas that we have been urging an evacuation of for over a month – because these are Hamas strongholds where we have seen intense urban fighting – we need to apprehend those people, work out who the terrorists are. And if there are people there who are not, in fact, terrorists they will, of course, be released.”

Not quite the case, but very close.

Bump.

Queue tortured logic to avoid saying I was right.

Cameron wrote:[tw]1782737187982721039[/tw]

lol, that guy sounds really believable.

e’re seeing in these images are all suspected terrorists,” Israeli government spokesperson Eylon Levy told CNN’s Brianna Keilar. “When we find military-aged men in areas that we have been urging an evacuation of for over a month – because these are Hamas strongholds where we have seen intense urban fighting – we need to apprehend those people, work out who the terrorists are. And if there are people there who are not, in fact, terrorists they will, of course, be released.”

What exactly is your point here?  They are at freaking war.

What exactly, to you, would have been an appropriate response by israel after getting initially attacked by Hamas using terrorist tactics?

What is a an appropriate response from Israel after getting viciously attacked by a terrorist organization?

Say thank you for the honor of your missiles and abductions, here's half our territory. And our women.

Sir, please stop

I YIELD! I YIELD!

here's bibi, take him, and here's Jerusalem.

We're all leaving.

You can kill us all, and we won't do anything.

Take our weapons and bullets, you deserve them.

Cameron wrote:

You're drunk

Why don't you stop complaining for once in your life and tell us what an appropriate response would have been?

Not genocide.

in a perfect cameron world, Colombia and the other universities would let the kids piss and shit everywhere and chant anti sematic slogans all around every day

How 'bout you get your mom to blow me while your dad watches? There is a thread about the Israel-Gaza war in which I have posted extensively. I have no reason to engage with this thread in any serious way, but it's cute how much you think about me.

Hamas killed innocent civilians at a music festival.

Israel is creating collateral damage while targeting everywhere there might possibly be a Hamas fighter.

Israel's terms of engagement suck, but are better than Hamas's, they are targeting Hamas fighters everywhere they possibly might be.

Believing Israel when they say they are bombing places because they think there is hamas in a given location is an option I guess

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Believing Israel when they say they are bombing places because they think there is hamas in a given location is an option I guess

War against a gorilla based force is pretty much a cluster snafu.

Israel's terms of engagement are so wide that anyone who has relatives who have the same name as someone in Hamas is a likely target.  Which sucks.  Plus there is little verification that the person is at the address when the bombs fall.

However, as loose as that is there is twisted logic to the terms of engagement, unlike Hamas just killing innocents at a music festival, which is one step below what Israel is doing.

As I have said since this thread started, both sides are evil, and this part of what is going on in the mideast is no win for the US.

The Palestinian situation in Gaza & the west bank is that no one wants these people in their country. Not Israel, not Jorden, not Syria, not Egypt, not Saudi Arabia & not Iran. So they are trapped where they are.

Trapper Gus wrote:Hamas killed innocent civilians at a music festival.

Israel is creating collateral damage while targeting everywhere there might possibly be a Hamas fighter.

Israel's terms of engagement suck, but are better than Hamas's, they are targeting Hamas fighters everywhere they possibly might be.

I challenge you to quote any post I've made that is complimentary of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and they should give all the hostages back. The IDF is also a terrorist organization, and they should give all of their hostages back as well.

Trapper Gus wrote:War against a gorilla based force is pretty much a cluster snafu.

I'll say...

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:Hamas killed innocent civilians at a music festival.

Israel is creating collateral damage while targeting everywhere there might possibly be a Hamas fighter.

Israel's terms of engagement suck, but are better than Hamas's, they are targeting Hamas fighters everywhere they possibly might be.

I challenge you to quote any post I've made that is complimentary of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and they should give all the hostages back. The IDF is also a terrorist organization, and they should give all of their hostages back as well.

Hamas doesn't have any hostages left.

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:Hamas killed innocent civilians at a music festival.

Israel is creating collateral damage while targeting everywhere there might possibly be a Hamas fighter.

Israel's terms of engagement suck, but are better than Hamas's, they are targeting Hamas fighters everywhere they possibly might be.

I challenge you to quote any post I've made that is complimentary of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and they should give all the hostages back. The IDF is also a terrorist organization, and they should give all of their hostages back as well.

There is no point in discussing anything with you, or Travis, for me.  I am posting my general thoughts only

TravelinMan wrote:

Cameron wrote:

I challenge you to quote any post I've made that is complimentary of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and they should give all the hostages back. The IDF is also a terrorist organization, and they should give all of their hostages back as well.

Hamas doesn't have any hostages left.

Last MSM reports I read suggested they have around 30 women, children & older people and an unknown number of military aged men.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Believing Israel when they say they are bombing places because they think there is hamas in a given location is an option I guess

War against a gorilla based force is pretty much a cluster snafu.

Israel's terms of engagement are so wide that anyone who has relatives who have the same name as someone in Hamas is a likely target.  Which sucks.  Plus there is little verification that the person is at the address when the bombs fall.

However, as loose as that is there is twisted logic to the terms of engagement, unlike Hamas just killing innocents at a music festival, which is one step below what Israel is doing.

As I have said since this thread started, both sides are evil, and this part of what is going on in the mideast is no win for the US.

The Palestinian situation in Gaza & the west bank is that no one wants these people in their country. Not Israel, not Jorden, not Syria, not Egypt, not Saudi Arabia & not Iran. So they are trapped where they are.

Sure, yeah I mean that could be it. Or they could just hate Palestinians and want them all dead, Hamas or not. And I guess if they really did just want all of the Palestinians dead, they’d have to tell you they were doing something else so that maybe some simple folk believe them and they wouldn’t get immediately thrown in The Hague.. Oh you know what would be a great cover story? That they bombed the school because there was a hamas there and the rules of engagement get murky. Yeah, I bet a bunch of people who want to paper over anything they do because it’s inconvenient to the sitting president would eat that right up